Shiur Kviat Seudah The Sugya B'Iyun

1.      Is it Personal or Objective
Gemara Berachot 42. tells over an incident between Rav Huna and Rav Nachman. Rav Huna ate a lot of Pas Haba Bikisnin food but didn’t bentch. Rav Nachman challenges him saying that you ate a lot and the rule goes after the amount that other people would eat as a meal which makes someone obligated to bentch (to say Birkat hamazon).
We see from this Gamera that the halacha wasn’t like what Rav Huna practiced but rather what Rav Nachman came and corrected. The issue is that we need to determine exactly what Rav Nachman was correcting, and there are two possibilities:

1. Rav Nachman completely disagreed with what Rav Huna did. Rav Nachman holds that the shiur isn’t based on what one personally eats but is rather based on what the objective common standard is. Rav Nachman was thus telling Rav Huna that even though he himself wasn’t satiated from the amount he ate – he should still bentch since the amount goes after the common man and is not a subjective amount.
2. Or possibly Rav Nachman doesn’t disagree with Rav Huna that much. Perhaps, one is supposed to bentch when he himself personally reaches a level of satiation. However, in addition to this rule, one could also reach an obligation to bentch even if he personally didn’t reach satiation but he did eat more that the objective standard. In this case one is supposed to bentch despite still not being full. According to this approach, there are two ways of creating an obligation to bentch: Either one eats enough for he himself to be full or he eats what most people would eat. Thus Rav Nachman was saying to Rav Huna, I know you still aren’t full but the rule is that despite you not being full, as long as you ate an amount what others would eat to get full from, you should still bentch.

Rashi (D”H Rav Huna Achal) seems to understand the Gamera like approach 1. On the other hand, the Rosh and certainly the Rif understand the Gamera like approach 2. In addition, the Rambam (Berachot 3:9) and Beit Yosef seems to go this way, that the shiur is really based on the individual, however if he wasn’t kovea yet he ate a really large amount that any normal guy would – then you should also bentch. So in truth there is a combination of both personal and objective standards

2.     How do we define the shiur of a meal?
There are 3 different opinions:

1. The Eliyahu Raba – The volume of 3 or 4 eggs, which is based off the size of Eruv Techumin
2.  Several Achronim, including the Gra – a meal like breakfast or dinner
3. The Shulchan Aruch HaRav – half the shiur of challah, which is half an Omer, based off the size of the Man which would fall in desert.

Of these opinions, it seems like “A” and “C” go according to the first approach that we brought down earlier. (objective) While “B,” the GRA, follows the second approach of personal.
The Aruch HaShulchan favors the objective approach and even uses the term “Batel Da’ato” when explaining why the individual’s personal consumption doesn’t make a difference since he is nullified when compared with the rest of the world.
However this understanding is difficult – since, 1, most of the rishonim seem to imply the personal approach. Moreover, it is difficult to use the term “Batel Da’ato” to that which is based upon what the Jews ate in the desert or to that of the Eruv. The Eruv is established as the minimum amount for a poor person’s meal and it doesn’t seem right to tell this individual that his personal consumption is nullified when compared to a poor person’s shiur.
Therefore, Ashkenazic halacha ultimately follows the GRA’s interpretation. The Mishna Berura quotes the halacha that we  really following the opinion of “a meal like breakfast and dinner” yet he also advises to be cautious of the 3/4 egg opinion.
Sephardim hold definitively that the correct halacha is like the A. Thus the shiur without a doubt is the size of 4 eggs. (I say size because there is a machloket between volume and weight which is discussed …) If one ate the size of 3 eggs then he would be in doubt, since after all the Rambam holds the Shiur of Eruv is 3 eggs.
Ok, back to Ashkenazic halacha, it seems like an overwhelming majority of Ashkenazic poskim side like the GRA (including the Nishmat Adam, Magen Avraham, Mishna Berura, Igres Moshe, and Chosam Sofer). 

 

3.     The GRA
So the halacha follows the GRA, “a meal like breakfast or dinner,” but what does that mean?
The Shevet HaLevi writes that the shiur of the GRA is much more than the size of 4 eggs. 4 eggs is the minimum for a poor man, and we eat much more in practice. But exactly how much, is our question?
The Igres Moshe takes some kind of balance between personal and objective as he holds the shiur is overall objective yet there are categories within the objective standard that group different make up. He makes an interesting chidush that the shiur varies from country to country, as well as from different categories of people like old and young. Meaning that the amount that the average American eats is different than the amount the average Italian eats. Moreover, old and young people generally eat very little while teenagers eat a lot.
The problem with this idea is how far can you take it? What if a guy is sick and eats less than he normally eats? Does that mean he didn’t eat the correct shiur or perhaps there is a “sick category” that he would fall into and would qualify as eating enough. Or what about a small woman who eats less than women her age but more than people her own size – would we go by age or size? At the end of the day, we can keep on making further and further distinctions until everyone has their own category!

Therefore, the basic borders which everyone agrees to is age and gender and a person should judge what they personally ate in comparison to other people of his/her age group (i.e. teenager or old man) and gender.

 

4.     4 Eggs
Even though the ikur halacha goes according to the GRA, we are still choses (cautious) of the 4 eggs opinion.

Rav Elyashiv holds that if one eats the volume of 4 eggs and is satiated he should bentch. (And of course, if he knew in advance he should have also washed and said hamotzei).

However, if one isn’t full after eating such an amount, he wouldn’t bentch since this isn’t really a shiur of kviat seudah.

 

5.     Combining Other Foods
One question we need to ask is whether the shiur is calculated solely based on the amount of Pas haba bikisnin or whether it can include other foods in the total amount?

The Magen Avraham has a big chidush that we do include “other foods” (Shar Devarim – will be defined later). The logic is that when we eat a bread meal, say on Shabbos for example, we eat tons of food – and most of it not being bread. We get full from the other foods as well. So to, with Pas Haba Bikisnin we could get full from the other foods in combination with the Pas Haba Bikisnin.

On the other hand, the Birkay Yosef agues, and this is indeed the opinion for Sephardim. However Ashkenazim generally hold like the Magen Avraham.

 

6.     Back to the 4 Eggs
So we have said that if one eats the volume of 4 eggs he should bentch – but now we must ask if this volume of 4 eggs includes other foods or not?
The author of V’Zot Haberacha poskins that one does not need to be choses to such an extent. He explains, that since first of all, the ikur halacha is that 4 eggs isn’t the shiur kviat seudah. Moreover, it is possible the halacha follows the Birkay Yosef over the Magen Avraham. Out of these two doubts – we would say that one does not need to be choses of this idea.
Therefore only if one eats the volume of 4 eggs of Pas Haba Bikisnin ALONE, and not including other things – would he bentch.

 

7.     The Chumrah of the Igres Moshe
What makes a meal a pas haba bikisnin meal?
So far we have said it would be when I am eating a pas haba bikisnin muffin along with a lot of other foods. But what about the following case: What if I eat chicken, rice and potatoes and then take 2 chocolate cookies? Would that be considered a pas haba bikissnin meal?
Rav Moshe held it would be and therefore in such a scenario one would need to bentch. On the other hand Rav Shlomo Zalman held that one would need to eat the pas haba bikisnin with the rest of the food for everything to add up. Not that it physically needs to be eaten in the same mouthful, but rather that you are eating from the muffin in the same general time you eat from the other stuff.
You can certainly choose to hold like Rav Moshe if you want, but in general it seems that most people hold like Rav Shlomo Zalman, except that they are choses for Rav Moshe. Meaning, they wouldn’t bentch in the above scenario, but they would even try to avoid the situation. They wouldn’t eat the Pas haba bikisnin at the end of the meal totally disconnected form the rest of the food. They would eat it at the beginning of the meal and they would wash and bentch.

 

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