Kviat Seudah

There are two types of Mezonot foods

1. A cooked food – this is not considered bread-like and will always be mezonot.
1. Examples - porridge, oatmeal, noodles, soup nuts (deep fried) couscous, kugals, blintzes, egg rolls, doughnuts,
2. A baked food – similar to bread (like pat habah bekissinin), and it is only mezonot when eaten as a snack, however if eaten in a “Kviat Sudah” manner then hamotzei. (We will define this term below)
1. Examples - borekas, hotdogs in dough shell, mezonot rolls, pizza made from fruit juice, bagel chips, pretzels, crackers, biscuits, (matzah for Sephardim), and cake.

(Pancakes – Since Pancakes are cooked with very little oil, some poskim say it would be in the “baked food” category and would receive a hamotzei if you ate enough. Others argue and say it doesn’t have bread appearance and therefore wouldn’t be hamotzei no matter how much you eat. Rav Bodner poskins that when pancakes are made with very little oil, it is considered part of baked food category and would require hamotzei if one ate enough.)

Shiur of Kviat Seudah For Ashkenazim

(Sefardim see below)

There is a lengthy discussion about this topic and if you are interested I encourage you to read it. However, the bottom line Practical Halacha is you make a hamotzei and Birkat HaMazon whenever you eat Pas Haba Bikisnin as a meal or the amount of a meal.

1. As a Meal

If you eat Pat Haba Bekisnin just like you would eat bread in a meal then you would need to bentch on the Pat Haba Bekisnin just like you would on the bread. Sometimes you eat plain bread for a meal (like a bagel) and sometimes you eat bread in addition to all types of meal type foods (meats, vegetables, cheese, and side dishes).

Let's agree that most people, when they eat plain bread, they usually will eat one and a half bagels. Believe it or not, but a typical bagel is 10 Kazayit. So that means the average shiur for a meal consisting of just bread would be 15 Kazayit. So if you one was in a rush and he decided to eat cake for his breakfast and he ate 15 Kazayit of that cake - he would need to wash, say hamotzei and bentch. Keep in mind that a Kazayis is much less than we often think. 1 Kazayis is just less than 1 fluid ounce. That means that if you were to take one of those 8 ounce plastic cups and fill it with cake you'd have 8 kazayis of cake. That's not even such a huge piece, perhaps a bit more generous than normal but still its not that far out. Do that twice and you have to bentch.

Lets also agree that when people eat bread to accompany their other dishes they normally eat one or two slices of white bread. Each slice of white bread is 2-3 Kazaiyis, which means that people typically eat 5 Kazaiyis of bread when used to accompany other dishes. That means if you were to eat just 5 Kazayit of Pat Haba Bekisnin to accompany another 10 or more Kazayit of main dishes - you would have to bentch.

However, there is one restriction on the foods that combine – if you would make a beracha on them during a bread meal, then they wouldn’t combine. (We discuss this in greater detail here. But the idea in short is that there are certain foods which aren’t connected to the meal but rather function as a desert / to clean teeth. For a simple example, take fruit, most times one would need to make a new beracha on fruit even if eaten during a bread meal. Therefore the volume of the fruit would not contribute to your total volume in creating a kviat seudah.)

Even if you only ate 1 KaZayit of Pas Haba Bikisnin, but you filled yourself like you would normally during a meal with soups, salads, meats, vegetables, (almost) anything – then you should bentch. 

It is important to note that while you can eat these foods for hours and have them add up – at least one KaZayit of Pas Haba bikisnin must be eaten in a 4 minute time period. (see discussion on C’dei Achilat Pras)

2. The Amount of a Meal

Say you don’t eat it as a meal, but rather at 3pm you are hungry for a snack. If you would eat the amount of food that you normally eat for a meal right then and there – you would need to bentch. For example, if you eat 15 Kazayit of pretzels at 3pm – you must bentch. Even if you call it a “really big snack” – it is halachically a meal.

What about the 3 or 4 Egg Standard?

The Mishna Berura and many poskim advise that one should take the chumrah of watching for this opinion as well. Therefore even if one’s personal amount is 15 Kazayit – if he would eat only 8 Kazayit there would be a safek if he should bentch. The poskim advise that if one feels full from just those 8 he should bentch and if not he should say Al Hamichya.

However, since as the Mishna Berura says this isn't really the primary opinion Ashkenazim follow (Sephardim do) and we are only being only being cautious for it - we wouldn’t need to worry about combining other foods in creating this kviat seudah. So if you only ate 8 Kazayit, then those 8 Kazayit must all come from Pas Haba Bikisnin.

Size of a Kazayit

Keep in mind that a Kazayit really isn’t that big. 1 Kazayit is equal to the volume of 1 fluid ounce. So picture an 8 ounce plastic cup and that is the shiur kviat seuda according to the smallest opinion. That means if you cut a generous slice of chocolate cake, it would probably be around 8 Kzayit. Imagine stuffing the cake into our cup – would the cake fill up the entire cup? If so, then you have already eaten enough for this opinion and you would not need to ask yourself if you are just as full now as after a normal meal. People typically eat around 15 (or 20) ounces at a meal, so most likely you’re probably not full yet, and you should only say Al Hamichya. I'm talking about the full that you get after a meal. The kind of full that lasts 5 hours until the next full, not some temporary full.

Also remember that a Kazayit is measured in volume and not in weight. So if the slice was in brownies instead of cake, you would probably get much more full from less Kazayitim since they are so dense. Meaning, a normal guy could probably eat 8 Kazayit of chocolate cake no problem, but only 4 Kazayit of brownies.

Objective or Subjective

Is the shiur based on your personal averages or everyone's averages. In truth it's both. Therefore you should go by yourself, unless you know you're an exception. I would say 80% of people reading this are normal eaters. If you are honest and can decide that you are a normal eater then you should go by yourself. If its 10, 15 or 20 Kazayit that's fine, because in truth you most likely reflect the average for your category (see directly below), or close enough to it (this isn't an exact science).

If however, you know you eat more or less then most people do - then don't go by yourself.

If you eat less than most people do but you are full - then don't betch. If you eat more than most people do and are still not full from eating those15 or 20 Kazayit - you should bentch.

How Do We Decide the Average

Before when I said that people generally eat 1 and a half bagels - I was referring to myself and people like me. But that shiur wouldn't apply to a girl my age who might eat 3/4 of a bagel and call it a meal. Additionally, it wouldn't apply to boy not my age.

Therefore one should judge if he/she is considered a normal eater in comparison with people of his/her age group (i.e. teenager or old man) and gender.

Shiur for Sephardim

1) Many Sephardim go by weight, while others go by Volume and both are acceptable and each should keep their own minhag.

• If you are going by weight, each Kazayit weights 28 grams and a shiur seudah would be around 230 grams.
• If you are going by volume, each Kazayit is one fluid once and the shiur seudah is 8 ounces.

Most of the time the two methods should be very close together, however there are some foods which are at the extremes of either really dense or really light that make differences.

2) Regardless of your method, Sephardim in general agree that one doesn’t include other foods. The shiur is determined using pure Pat Habah BiKisonin.

3) Four beitzah (or 8 Kazayit) creates a definite obligation to bentch. However, according to the Rambam, one only needs to eat 3 Beitzah or 6 Kazayit to bentch. Therefore, we poskin that out of uncertainty, one should avoid eating between 6 and 8 Kazayit. Either eat less than 6 and say Al Hamichya. Or eat more than 8 and bentch.

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